Managing Internal Expectations in Divisive Times

Jennifer Carr: Welcome to this week’s episode of On Record. PR, I’m Jennifer Simpson Carr, and I’m here with my colleague, Sarah Larson. Hi, Sarah.

Sarah Larson: Good morning. Well, it’s still morning here.

Jennifer Carr: It’s Monday, March 17, and today we are going to be talking about the continued political attacks on individual law firms and the rule of law itself. These continue to intensify, particularly through these recent executive orders. We know that leaders, law firm leaders, are grappling with a few difficult questions, and they are around whether or not their firms should speak out. If so, how and either way, how do we manage internal expectations and communications?

Sarah Larson: These are important questions, really important questions that everyone’s talking about right now.

Jennifer Carr: Yeah, and as we were chatting before this recording, we were just saying that your staff cares, your lawyers care, your employees care, your clients are watching. And then what came out today is the open letter from big law associates to call calls for firms to defend their colleagues. We’ll drop in the show notes the link to the American Lawyer coverage of this there. I know you read this before we hopped on.

Sarah Larson: First, before we go any farther, Happy Saint Patrick’s Day. My Irish ancestors would be extremely displeased if I did not acknowledge Happy St Patrick’s Day. Moving on. Yeah, this, this open letter that we got the link to today. It looks like it started late last week. Really crystallizes what you and I and Gina and our leadership had been talking about last week, that everyone is watching. You cannot pretend that this isn’t happening. You cannot pretend that if you just keep your head down. Nobody is going to play Whack a Mole with you and your firm that’s not working. Everyone is watching. Your clients are watching to see what you do and say. Your staff cares. Your lawyers are watching. The associates are watching. All the partners are watching. And everyone has kind of a different take on it and a different stake on it. And if you haven’t, if the firms haven’t, there are some firms that have spoken out. We do need to acknowledge that there are several firms and there are individual lawyers. I believe that it was 14 lawyers signed their name to the representation of Perkins Coie in court. Was that last week? Was that last month? I don’t know. Is there a Google Sheet somewhere that someone was tracking all of the all of the legal matters? I just remember that because I’d made a point, because I wanted to mention that, like there are individual people speaking up, and there are, there are individual firms, but not nearly as many as I think most people had anticipated. And we know, because we work with so many firms, we understand what leadership is going through right now, right? They’re weighing all of these different questions and trying to figure out their way forward. And we’ve gotten a couple questions from them asking exactly that, what do I do now?

Jennifer Carr: In addition to that, I know there were, I believe the number is 20 state attorneys general who signed on as well to an amicus brief. So we can link that to that as well. So what’s happening is there are individuals and some groups speaking out. We talked about last week on our episode about the ABA statement, and now more are coming forward. But I think the real pause is where are large law firms? I’m going to read an excerpt from the from the coverage on this:

“We call on our employers, large American law firms, to defend their colleagues and the legal profession by condemning this rapid purge of ‘partisan actors,’ a group that seems to be synonymous with those the president feels have wronged him,” the letter states.

And then it goes on calling for big law to lead the way in this conversation. But you mentioned something really interesting, Sarah, and one thing that we really need to talk about today, which is two big challenges. One, the news is moving really fast. Executive Orders are coming out with sweeping implications for firms, and it does feel like by the time leadership is starting to wrap their arms around one issue, another one drops. So that’s been a challenge, and then the other big challenge that they’re facing is, how do we navigate internally, these conversations and expectations. So I guess let’s start with the expectations, especially when there’s not alignment. So a client comes to us and says, “We cannot come to an agreement on a position.” How do we as an agency, advise law firm leaders? To lead these discussions when there is not consensus?

Sarah Larson: Great question. Well, I think we should point out first of all that when, when that client comes to us, and a couple have it’s usually the managing partner or the Executive Committee, and it’s just them saying, I don’t know how to lead through this crisis, not in general. I don’t know what to do next. So the first thing that we tell them is, you’re not alone, and you don’t have to make this decision on your own. You need to start by listening to your people. And I think that’s really missing in some of this, because a lot of the stuff takes time and deliberation, and lawyers are risk averse, just as a species, and we don’t have a lot of time for that, right? This is moving really fast. So, you know, our advice to that client, in that particular instance, if they called us today, we would say, schedule a townhall call firm wide for tomorrow, and structure it like you normally would, you know, make sure that there’s time for leaders to speak, to ask their questions, but then give an opportunity, whether it’s through questions during chat or questions by email, for your staff and for your attorneys to talk, we really need to listen to them first. The last thing you want to do is rush to issue a statement for the whole farm before you’ve even talked to anybody beyond the EC.

Jennifer Carr: I think that’s not only good advice for gaining consensus or uncovering how people are feeling, but it also gives everyone the chance for their voice to be heard by their employer.

Sarah Larson: Yes, yes. And that’s a huge part of buy-in for any type of communication about any issue. You want people to feel like they’re being heard.

Jennifer Carr: So you start by listening, and then what would be a next step?

Sarah Larson: Once you listen, if so, let in the in the best course of action, the firm has a has a discussion, has a meeting, you come to some sort of agreement on what to do, whether that’s issue a public statement, or, you know, sign on to to an amicus brief, or whatever that case may be. If that decision is clear cut, frankly, you probably already would have done that. So the next course of action is, if you really can’t agree, and there are going to be some cases where people can’t agree on what to do and say publicly, you have to take a step back and really think about, who are we as a firm, who are we as an organization? What do we believe in? What is important to us, when clients come to us, and I guess just from a big picture standpoint, we get, we get a lot of firms of all different sizes who come to us, and you know, their differentiators are really no differentiators. They’re all competing in the same space. And we tell them to the hardest, the hardest homework for them is to think about really who you are as a firm, who you want to be, what you believe in, because that’s then going to guide your actions. And I know that’s easy to say in this situation, but it really does come back down to that you have to decide what your firm’s core values are, even if you don’t issue a public statement, your people need to know your internal people need to know what you stand for.

Jennifer Carr: It’s interesting because values and mission and alignment are not something that typically feel important in a law firm setting, until they become important. I remember very vividly, a little over 15 years ago, sitting on the PATH train. I was a baby marketer. I was very new in my career, and I ran into my very first crisis as an internal comms person. I was the acting director of the department. A former associate of the firm was tied up in some national news regarding an FBI sting, and so I look at my Blackberry, so that tells you what point of time in the world we are in, and mentally, I’m preparing for the kind of day I’m going to have. And what surprised me the most by that day, and I got in the office very early, was that the biggest hold up on the position the firm was going to take was the differences in opinions by the partners who had to make the decision. And so I share that, because more than 15 years later, we run into so many situations, obviously, this one’s unprecedented, and law firm leaders still wait. Unfortunately, there’s so many that wait until the time is now to really have conversations around where the firms stand and what positions they would take if certain scenarios.

Sarah Larson: Yeah, so two things. First of all, I am tired of living in unprecedented times. I would like to live in some precedented times just for a couple weeks, see how that goes. But apart from that, I think part of the issue in this particular situation is apparently our failure of imagination to ever believe that that a sitting president in his administration would try to strip authority from lawyers at a firm they didn’t like from doing their job. So I think, I think there are two things here. There’s a political statement, and then there’s just a, hey, we’re lawyers, and we believe in resolving differences through the rule of law position. Now, you could argue that even that one is going to raise your head above the water, and that may be, but in that point, in that case, like, why did you even become a lawyer? So, I mean, the ABA is standing up the there are some other Bar Association associations that are standing up. I’m pretty sure the Philadelphia Bar Association issued, issued a statement. So if firms are looking to do something like that, they can say, they can, they can come up with a statement that really just acknowledges the complexity, and dare I say it, the unprecedentedness of this situation, and be honest. Just you know, we understand that there are different views on this issue. As leaders of this firm, we are focused on protecting and promoting and empowering our people, our clients and our profession, even that says something, it’s not just nothing. It’s not just a vacuum. It’s probably not going to make your most vocal lawyers who are who are advocating for a firm or public stance completely happy, but it’s a place to start, at least.

Jennifer Carr: It’s interesting, because I just shared a quote from Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and it said,

“If your voice held no power, they wouldn’t try to silence you.” Rush Bader Ginsberg

So I think your comment about being silent versus saying something is well taken.

Sarah Larson: The other thing that I just wish and maybe this, I don’t know. We know a lot of the decision making behind these things by the managing partners and the ECs, because we are called in when they’re in a crisis and they want advice. So we know that a lot of them do talk to each other. I hope they all get on the phone to each other this week and just say, Okay, this is what we need to do. If every lawyer and law firm in this country stood together and said, this isn’t about politics. This is about supporting the rule of law and how we function as a society and how we resolve our differences, that would carry so much weight, and then everybody would be equally exposed, right? There’s no safe choice here. And I think that by the time you become a managing partner, especially at a huge firm, you have a weight of responsibility on your back, and nobody in that situation wants to expose the firm to more damage. I mean, they’ve got people’s, you know, livelihoods and their clients and everything else to consider. So I don’t necessarily think it’s that they’re shying away from it. It’s just that they know what big consequences are going to come from it. You know, even the letter from the associates, I was glad to see it, but I take issue with the fact that they’re calling out their employers, but they didn’t sign their names to it. They signed their firms. Yes, and that’s and that’s fine, and that’s a start, but like, if you as an associate don’t even feel safe signing your name to something, how do you expect the one guy who’s in charge of the whole firm to stand up first? And you could argue that that’s the that’s the mantle of leadership, but it just brings to mind the quote that we’re all about quotes today, apparently, Jennifer, you went with Ruth. I went with what was. It’s always attributed to Benjamin Franklin, but nobody has ever, none of his biographers have ever proved that it was actually him.

“We must, indeed, all hang together or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately.”  Benjamin Franklin

If everybody stood up together and said, This is not how we’re going to operate. This is what you know, But we need to hang together, or we’ll hang this is the rule of law. We reaffirm our belief in the rule of law. Everybody would be on equal footing. So maybe there’s a movement afoot behind the scenes to make some of that happen.

Jennifer Carr: I was thinking that as you were talking, and I’m hopeful that that’s the case. So let’s take a break for our sponsor message, and we get back, let’s talk about empowering leaders at all levels of the firm, right? Because leadership is about your actions, not necessarily just about titles. And then let’s talk about the external side of communications and how law firms can determine whether or not to speak out publicly.

Sarah Larson: Sounds good.

Jennifer Carr: We’re back from our sponsor message, and I want to pick up on the internal communications before we jump to the external side. So we talked about starting by listening, reaffirming core values and acknowledging the complexity of the situations that we are currently dealing with. How can internal leaders empower all leaders at all levels throughout the firm to give direction that’s clear on where the firm stands.

Sarah Larson: Yeah, one of the things that we always advise clients to do in every situation is it’s not just enough for the managing partner or the EC to have their own thoughts on what they’re going to say. You have to share that throughout leadership. And again, there might not be a lot of consensus, but you can empower the practice group leaders and the and the professional staff leaders to say, we know this is a complex situation. We care. We’re listening. These are our firm’s values, and in that way, you’re saying something, you’re hearing them, you’re giving them the opportunity to speak, but you’re not taking a political stand, right? Many of these people don’t want to take a political stand. They’re looking at reassuring their people so they can get the job of representing their clients done just on a daily basis.

Jennifer Carr: It’s great to have transparency and clear communication, or any communication internally, because something that you and I have talked about previously on the podcast, is that when there is silence internally, that is the prime time for the rumor mill to turn, for people to speculate.

Sarah Larson: Yeah, absolutely what I mean, whether you know whether a firm is in the news about something, or this particular situation, or you know if maybe there’s the firm struggling, or they think they’re going to be doing some layoffs, whatever the situation is, a lot of time the leaders will wait too long to say anything. Again, lawyers, especially leaders, are risk averse, right? And they think the less I say, the less I’m going to expose myself and get myself into trouble. The opposite is true in many cases, if you don’t say anything, it creates a vacuum, and people rush to fill that vacuum with their own they project their own beliefs, their own thoughts, their own suppositions, onto that situation. And now you’ve got 17 different rumor mills going that have no basis in reality. But by the time you’re on your feet trying to respond to them. It’s too late. You need to stop that train before it leaves the station.

Jennifer Carr: I can just imagine I was doing it. I know people can see me, but I can imagine our listeners who sit in in-house roles, shaking their heads, because we’ve all been there when the rumors start. So let’s switch over to the external side. How can law firms determine whether or not to speak out publicly on these issues?

Sarah Larson: Well, I’ll go back to something that we mentioned earlier in this particular podcast. There is no safe choice, so stop looking for the safe choice. There isn’t one, but there are thoughtful choices. You can decide as a firm what to say, how to say it and to do it carefully if you do speak out, if you do decide to whether it’s issuing a public statement or signing on to, example, this associates letter that’s now circulating around, be very clear on what your values are. Be very clear and specific on what your firm is, on the values that are aligned with your firm. If you stay silent, if you don’t say anything, you do need to be prepared to explain that choice internally to your own people and then to clients and colleagues, because, as we said when we opened, everyone is watching. And the last thing I would say is, again, coming back to you don’t need to take a political stand. You can take a really thoughtful values based approach to a comment. You don’t have to comment specifically on, for example, on an executive order, whether it’s regarding a specific firm or anything else. You don’t have to comment on any of the lawsuits, right? You can avoid that if you want, and but you can make a statement that says something along the lines of, as a firm, we are committed to representing our clients fearlessly. That should be a given for every firm. There should be nothing controversial about saying that out loud we support a diverse and inclusive workforce. Again, I think regardless of whether you believe in setting the quotas and percentages and targets that give kind of tooth to some of the DEI policies. I think we all agree that making any workplace more welcoming to everyone is a good thing, regardless of who they are, how they get there. So committing to saying we treat our people well we give everyone a voice shouldn’t be controversial and again, the last thing, upholding the rule of law should not be controversial.

Jennifer Carr: I want to go back to something that you just said, because we talked about it briefly on the inside, which is the rumor mill. But when you do not have clear direction as an employee or lawyer at a firm, you run the risk of then different messages getting out to the public. Right? A client calls and starts to ask questions, or someone on your team pops into your office, or you hop on a Teams or Zoom call and they have questions. Without having that clear direction from the firm you do run the risk of leaving your designated leaders in a position where they’re coming up with a message that is true to them and may not necessarily reflect the firm and what the firm is hoping to communicate.

Sarah Larson: Yeah, sure. So again, coming back to the way we started the whole episode, is it, don’t avoid what’s going on, talking about it internally, coming to some sort of consensus on what we believe as an organization. Hopefully, that works already been done, but for many firms, honestly, it hasn’t. So this is a good time to do it, what we believe, who we are, what our values are, is just a good step forward. This letter, by the way, is up to 329 signatures as of midday Monday, and it hasn’t been shared very widely yet. It will be in the coming days. Like this is coming to your firm, your associates are already talking about this. So it’s draining the firm’s resources. It’s pulling the firm’s attention. You know, as we’ve been talking about this, I’ve been thinking the time is now to get to these statements, because otherwise you are, we’re just going to be what’s going to happen tomorrow, like we’re just going to be churning more and more and more time that could be spent in really far more productive ways.

Jennifer Carr: Two good points. One is that without understanding where firms stand, your attorneys and staff are probably a bit distracted with what’s going on in the world. If they had solid ground with where firms stood, they might feel a little bit more head down and engaged, is my guess. And two, this goes back to something we talked about earlier, which is, if you don’t have consensus, if you don’t have a strong grasp of values, this is the time to have the conversation, because it won’t be the last time that those things are tested and they need to be ironclad.

Sarah Larson: Put that work in now, because you’re going to need it in the coming months.

Jennifer Carr: Thank you for joining me today. I always love talking to you. I learned so much from you, and I leave our conversations feeling more confident about the conversations that I can have personally. Thank you to our listeners. We will have a lot of links and quotes today that we’ve mentioned in our show notes. Please follow us anywhere that you listen to podcasts, subscribe so that you’re alerted when our podcasts drop. If you’ve enjoyed today’s episode, please leave a review on iTunes, and we will see you next week.