Leadership Through Transparency and Collaboration with Dena Calo, EVP of Human Resources and Employment Counsel at The Durst Organization

In this episode of On Record PR, Jennifer Simpson Carr goes on record with Dena Calo, Executive Vice President of Human Resources and Employment Counsel at The Durst Organization, to discuss the transformative impact of transparency, collaboration, and trust in leadership, highlighting Dena’s journey from a law firm to an in-house role where these values drive cultural and organizational success. She leads The Durst Organization’s overall human resources strategy through collaboration with business and operations leaders.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m so excited to have reconnected with you just a few years ago at a legal industry event, and we had the pleasure of working together many years ago at a small firm which was the start of my career. It’s been great to watch your success and reconnect recently.

Dena Calo: I can say the same for you. It’s been my pleasure. I like that we’re connected and talking again.

Can you tell us about The Durst Organization?

The organization has been in existence over 100 years, and it’s a family real estate company in New York City. They own, operate, and manage some of the most sustainable high-rises in the country. We handle both commercial and residential.

Then there are some interesting arms that are breaking out from the main company. Durst Ventures is another part of the organization. The new robotic window washer invention came out of Durst Ventures, and we’re hoping it is very successful. It makes me less nervous to think of a robot outside my window instead of a person, because that really gets me nervous every time I see it.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: Oh, I can imagine. Certainly, any organization that’s investing in venture or the future is forward-thinking and innovative. I’m guessing that that’s been your experience at the company?

Dena Calo: It is. We’re in a somewhat difficult time right now for commercial real estate, with financing issues and that sort of thing. One of the things that I’ve loved since I started here in January is that strategic forward-thinking on how to manipulate in challenging times and excel in better times. It’s been an interesting learning experience for me, and I’m really excited about it.

What was the journey like for you transitioning from private practice to the role you’re in now?

I always wanted to be a lawyer. I thought I was going to retire being a lawyer in a law firm. It’s interesting how your life evolves as time goes on. About 10 years ago while working for a smaller firm, I got the assignment to come to The Durst Organization three days a week and help them with an investigation. Then I ultimately stayed in the role until they found a new individual to take on the role that had been vacated.

I was here for about a year and a half. For the lawyers out there who don’t have business experience, I think that year and a half taught me ten years’ worth of business knowledge. Being in a business versus being in a law firm is so different. It helps with your counseling of clients when you understand what they’re doing.

When I left that firm, I thought to myself, because of my experience, maybe I want to go in-house. As much as I love the law, there’s a lot of challenge, whether it’s my partners, opposing counsel, or judges. The justice system just never seemed to meet my expectations. At that time, I actually started thinking about going in-house, whether it be legal or otherwise.

There was a recruiter I dealt with at the time, and I was down on the law. I was down on being a partner and how you bring in business. I was down on a lot of stuff related to the law at the time. This recruiter changed my path because she got me to be introspective about why I wanted to leave the law. She turned me around, and I worked with her to get a position at a big national law firm. I was scared at the time. How am I going to get business? I’d always done marketing, but I never really knew at the firms I was at prior what I was bringing in. That’s another issue with law, especially bigger law. There’s not a lot of transparency in certain things, compensation being one of them.

Anyway, I was there for ten years, and I couldn’t be happier that I had that experience. I learned how a law firm operates. I learned how to get business. I was really successful in getting business, but the frustration continued. Law firms, in my mind, are just different in how they create and support leaders in the organization. I worked there ten years, and ultimately that led to this role.

It was a very interesting experience because as much as I’d been talking about it going in-house, I really hadn’t done anything. I hadn’t put out any resume, nothing. Then last year about this time I got a call from The Durst Organization, and they said, “We’re going to have an opening in our lead HR role. We would like you to come talk to us.” One thing led to another and here I am as Executive Vice President of Human Resources and Employment Counsel. I am having so much fun doing it.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I’m so happy to hear that. A couple things that you said resonated with me. One, the impact the recruiter had on you and your career. We’re all lucky when we find people who can change our perspective or help us see beyond our frustrations. That’s an amazing experience. Also, that The Durst Organization contacted you – what an impact you must have had in the time that you were there. That’s incredible, and it sounds like you’re having a great time.

Can you tell our listeners more about what it’s like being in business and a leader at The Durst Organization?

I think you don’t see things until you’re past them and can look back. That’s when you can analyze a situation. I was the head of the employment of the employment litigation group and head of the women’s group at my law firm. I was counsel for the firm on employment matters. While that all sounds like I was in leadership, I really wasn’t. I felt like anytime there was an opportunity for me to advance, things changed. Everything’s so discretionary, so from their perspective, they were supporting me and doing what they needed.

Fast forward, I come here as a leader in the organization. I’m leading several teams. I’m working very closely with the COO, President, and Chairman every day and the thing that I’ve recognized now is I wasn’t a leader at my firm. Here I’m being treated like a leader. That makes me act more like a leader. It’s just nice to have things that you say matter and people listen. The strategic focus of the company becomes very important, especially in harder times, and I think I have already played such a significant role this year in that leadership and the development of our culture and continuing our culture.

For me, that is what the leading of the organization is like. The other thing is, collaboration and transparency, which I know not all companies have but I think we should strive for, is key to a great culture. Here there’s so much of that. With all the decisions we’re making, we’re getting in rooms and discussing them. We’re brainstorming.

It’s been very interesting to see the difference between working in an organization and working at a law firm. I have no billables anymore, which to me is the best thing ever. I used to spend too much time doing my billables. It’s a new experience for me after 25 years of practicing employment law, to come in-house and now be leading and doing all of these things with an eye toward the law, but it’s not legal work. I feel like I’m thriving in it.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: That’s amazing, and certainly transparency and collaboration are key components of success for an organization and for team members feeling valued at all levels. You oversee so many teams and HR is your primary responsibility, and there’s a lot that’s been going on in the world since you started with The Durst Organization. People can fill in the blanks with all of the different things that we’re seeing on the news and being challenged with every day as humans and as professionals.

How have you in your role as HR helped the organization navigate some of the challenging times that people are facing?

I think it all comes back to communication and collaboration. From my perspective, we’ve had some of those issues, but not a ton in the time I’ve been here. It’s only been ten months, but with the current events issues that are occurring, we try to stay ahead of it. We try to let people know that while the workplace is not a place for political discussion or the tense political issues that we may be seeing or hearing, I do think it’s important for us to always connect with each other on what may be bothering us. I have an open door.

Another good thing about Durst is there’s longevity. People who are here when I was here ten years ago are still here, so that made it easy for me to get that immediate trust. I think that without that trust factor, it would have taken a longer time to build the relationships up where I can have a conversation with a group and say, “Here’s what we’re focused on. Here’s how we’re going to handle this issue, current events, whatever it is. And if you have any questions, come back.” I have ongoing discussions with the different leaders of the departments about those types of issues and how to handle them.

Can you tell our listeners about some of the challenges and accomplishments you’ve experienced throughout your career?

In my career as a whole, my biggest challenge was number one, keeping my mouth shut when I didn’t need to talk. From my perspective, I always wanted to fight the good fight if I saw a wrongdoing in the firm, in the professional space. I wanted to fix it. What I’ve learned is to listen first, take some time, and then sometimes things work themselves out without me ever having to say anything, which is great. If it doesn’t, one of my new mantras is, “Pour love on it.” I think you’re going to get a lot more when you are dealing with a challenge with positivity and with an acknowledgement that there’s always a solution.

In the last five years or so, that’s become how I approach almost every challenging situation. People around here know that’s one of my mantras. They’re like, “Okay, we’re gonna pour our love on it.” And I go, “Do it! If you do it, you’re gonna have great success.”

In that same vein, there’s a solution to every problem, and that is a hard thing to instill in others and to recognize for myself. When I’m in a tough situation, all I want to do is get out of it. “How are we going to deal with it? Oh no, stress is high.” If you sit back and think it through, there’s a solution out there. We just have to find it.

I’m most proud of all the attorneys that I’ve mentored over the years. I won a mentorship award in Philadelphia. That is something that drives me, and you can see the success that you’ve brought to them and that they have in their careers because of the ongoing mentorship relationship. I wouldn’t have that if I had burned any bridges, which I haven’t. So even through the different places I’ve gone, I’ve had an interesting timeline.

The first law firm where I worked was great. I was there about 18 months, and then I left and went to bigger firms. However, at some point in my career, they called me and said, “Would you come back?” The Durst Organization is actually the second time that I’ve had this repeat interest, which I see as an accomplishment in how my relationships are formed and kept up.

In the end, my biggest accomplishment is my kids. One’s in college. One just started working in September. I was a really busy mom. I can remember from when they were babies, I was the one who traveled. I was the one who was home late. But I’m so proud of the relationships I formed with my kids and the way they’ve grown up. It shows that you can have both. You can have a working life. You can be a busy mom, but still be a mom.

It’s funny, we always used to say at the firm, “This is one of my ‘hashtag bad mom’ days.” That happens, and it’s okay. It’s okay to have a bad mom day. It’s okay to be wrapped up in your personal life sometimes. So no more “hashtag bad mom.” We stopped that.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: That’s a great one. I’ve definitely heard “hashtag mom fail,” and I’ve been guilty of those too. I think any parent listening, including myself, has had those instances where we feel like we’re being pulled in so many directions. The mom guilt or the parent guilt is real.

What advice would you give to a parent listening who might be struggling with the balance of home and life and all the demands that work places on them?

A couple of things. One, you have to set boundaries both in personal and in business. I failed at that for the first 15 years of my practice. I had no boundaries, and that was back during a time when cell phones weren’t as prevalent as they are now. But I always had that feeling of, the client has to come first. I could be on vacation at 2:00 in the afternoon. I get a call, I take it.

Set the boundary of when you say that you’re going to be off and be with the family. Make that time meaningful, and make sure that family and business understand what those boundaries are. That has been successful for me. It took me a long time to get there, but that was very successful because once the clients or your partners or your peers know that at 6:00 each night, I’m off and I’m not going to pick up the phone again till later, depending on the age of the kid. Sometimes it’s 9:00 at night because I can get back on after the kids go to sleep. Other times I’m done at 7 and I’m going to pick it up again at 7 a.m. or whatever it is.

Once the individuals you’re interacting with know that, it becomes so much easier to manage, vs. feeling like you’re failing all the time because when you’re with the kids, you get work stuff, or when you’re at work, you have kid stuff. I just think you need to separate it. Be ready for the unexpected because it always happens. At the end of the day, we just have to realize that sometimes we need help and we should get it. Whether that’s somebody to help clean the house or it’s somebody to help a few hours a week with the kids or a peer of yours at work who can help give you support for the workplace – recognizing we don’t have to be superhuman and that we’re not going to be the hashtag bad moms or dads. At the end of the day, it will be successful so long as you know we can work it all together.

The most interesting part is a couple of my associates at my former firm just had babies, and I was on a call with one of them recently. She said, “I have no idea how anybody does this. How are you a lawyer? Now I understand. You seem so frantic at times. I heard about the kids, but I didn’t realize how hard it is.” Give yourself some grace. It is hard, but it gets easier and gets harder. With kids, I think you can say at the beginning it’s physically hard. When they’re teenagers, it’s emotionally hard and you have to be ready for that too.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: I think you’re giving me a glance into my future. My daughter’s only 10 right now.

Dena Calo: Well, there you go. It’s getting close.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: From my personal experience, it’s been helpful having other women and parents acknowledge that it’s a challenge and that it is hard and that even though people might make it look easy, it’s not that way. That ties into something you said earlier, which is your advocacy for other women and your mentorship.

Tell us about the work that you’ve done to support and mentor other women, both during your time in private practice and now, and why it’s so important for women to do those things for other women in business.

The fascinating thing for me is when I began as a lawyer, the older female lawyers that I interacted with were not mentors and did not support. In fact, there was a lot of backstabbing going on. I talked to other female lawyers around my age about this, and the general consensus is you had to be a certain way to succeed in law practice 30, 50 years ago, and so they’ve brought that forward.

Since I had those negative experiences, I decided myself, I can never do that to anybody else. I need to rise and bring all women to the top versus squishing them down because I want to be the only woman there. When I started at my last law firm, I immediately joined the Women’s Development Initiative. I found it interesting that what was talked about at that time at those meetings was, in my humble opinion, ridiculous. It was what we were wearing and haircuts. After the first two meetings, I was like, “Are we ever going to talk about what’s important, which is how you get business and how we can support each other? What is happening here?” As time went on, that became the theme of the Women’s Development Initiative. In my last year, I actually led the group with one of my wonderful friends, Ruth.

The feedback that we got – similar to what you just said, knowing that other women have gone through it and have succeeded and are ready to give you tips – those meetings that we had where that was discussed were the best and got the best feedback. Some junior associates are so frantic to make their partners happy that they want to hear what your experience has been and that you’ve gotten to this place having gone through all the phases that they went through.

To me, helping women succeed has become something I’m very passionate about. What I’m trying to do is train and develop everybody. I’m not focused only on women, but there are a few groups that I’m going to suggest taking female leaders to – events, trainings, things like that. I’m not trying to be sexist or discriminatory, but we learn a different way. We do things a different way than men generally. Maybe I’m overgeneralizing.

An individual who was my coach while I was at the law firm who I’m still close with, he came in to help a female group that I put together when I first started. I started it because I didn’t know anybody and I was like, “Hey, you all want to get together and talk about business development?” And they did. It turned into a wonderful group. But this coach that we brought in, who was a man, said several times that it’s fascinating to him how we lack confidence. He’s like, “You’re a badass. Why are you acting like you have zero confidence and you have zero skills?” I’m like, “I’m not.” He’s like, “You are.” And those few years with him opened our eyes. I’m glad to say the women who were in that have all become partners at the firm. I felt like I was a big piece of that, but he was a big piece of that too. He was a great coach. To me, seeing women succeed, especially women that you’ve mentored for a long time, is one of the most fulfilling things that I’ve engaged in.

Jennifer Simpson Carr: That’s such an important message for anyone in business and in life, because I personally feel like I wouldn’t be where I am without the mentors who took me under their wing or saw something in me that I didn’t see in myself. I’m so glad that you and I have kept in touch because you were someone who I always respected so much. I valued running into you in the hallway or working with you when we had the chance, so thank you for sharing that experience.

Dena Calo

Learn more about The Durst Organization

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/dena-calo-50b6bb6/

Jennifer Simpson Carr

Website: https://www.furiarubel.com/our-team/members/jennifer-simpson-carr/

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jennifersimpsoncarr

Instagram: @jsimpsoncarr